Peroni Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I've always been disappointed with the brakes on my 2010 2.0 petrol, manual Forester. I recently replaced the rear rotors (Brembo) and pads (Padgid) and had the brake fluid replaced and system bled at a recent service. Result?, brakes are still rubbish and hand brake always feels weak ( although this may just be that cable and drum shoes need re-adjusting). As an example, there is a steep downward hill to a T-junction just as I leave my home. It is usually the first time on any drive that I use my brakes in earnest and sometimes there is a heart-stopping moment where it feels like I won't stop in time. It sometimes seems to take more pedal travel and force that I am expecting. On the road the brakes feel generally weak and need a hefty boot to slow down from speed. It never feels dangerous, but it does not inspire confidence either. I'm now turning my attention to the front rotors and discs. Can anyone suggest decent brake kit that might give me a better, more powerful brake response? Is this a known issue with this car, or am I just unlucky? What are your Forester brakes like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Compared to our Landcruiser (a completely different system with electric pump for brake assistance) yes the typical Forester brakes feel poor in comparison. I don't think this is a fault as such its just that where so many modern cars are overservoed, Subarus are more old fashioned in that regard requiring more pedal pressure, no trouble stopping our Forester but it requires probably twice the pedal pressure required in other overservoed or overassisted vehicles, i prefer that to the too soft braking of the Toyota but my wife prefers the other way round, by the way the handbrake is excellent, yes yours needs looking at. For many years i used Ferodo standard brake pads, gave a soft progressive pedal and needed less foot force to stop the car, sadly they vanished from the standard brake material scene, increasingly as asbestos disappeared the new materials were harder which not only required more servo assistance but we got to the strange stage where discs would wear out as quickly as pads, at one time changing discs was unheard of, now they are regular service items. Case in point where those Ferodo pads proved themselves beyond doubt, family Golf Diesel mk 2, OE pads hard as nails, discs wearing out faster than the pads, required Herculean effort to stop the car, not easy for the mature lady owner, i swapped out those OE (Textar as i recall, same family as Pagid) pads and fitted Ferodo, car transformed, but this was the daya before ABS and it caused an imbalance, car became prone to locking the front wheels because the Ferodo pads were a 'grippier' material, so had to refit new new Ferodo brake shoes to the rear to restore balanced braking. Go back more years still and when cars had drum brakes all round, almost no cars had brake assistance but were no harder to stop, my 71 5.7 litre Mustang had unservoed drums all round, good brakes until you needed to stop from 3 figure speed when fade became the problem, if you tried stopping a typical disc braked car without servo assistance you would have to come up with several hundred percent more pedal pressure to stop the car. Back to the present, i've found Brembo friction materials to be as near as dammit as i can find to Ferodo of yore, sadly they don't have that rough coating that Ferodo applied designed to deglaze the discs as they wore in, but in all other aspects braking is improved all round, and if you use Brembo pads and discs i've found the last a long long time, again i suggest that just like tyres its best to have the same brake friction materials all round for balance. Where to buy Brembo, i usually get mine when GSF have one of their many sales on, worth registering on their site so you get emails to let you know when the sale is on, usually 60% off. Don't forget your brakes need proper strip clean lube servicing, ideally every year but every other year if not. Remove pads, clean everything up and examine everything carefully, exercise pistons in their bores (i do this by removing one pad only and pumping the brakes gently to move the pistons in their bores then lever the piston back gently, repeat several times each piston), then lube all sliders etc with the correct brake grease (not coppaslip) and re-assemble, and if it hasn't been flushed for some time maybe the brake fluid needs replacing...sadly few people service their brakes correctly and nor do many car dealer workshops (squirting brake cleaner in the general direction of the brakes is not brake servicing) and you will find very few makers specify correct brake servicing on the service schedule Toyota is one that does on every major service which for most is every other year, ironic when brakes are the most important part of your car together with the tyres but also one of the most neglected parts. Sorry its been such a long post. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 Great post Judd. And very helpful too. Sounds like Brembo discs & pads at the front, along with a good strip & service and maybe switch in a set of Brembos in the rear, to match the existing Brembo discs, wouldn't do any harm. I'll check the handbrake adjustment. I did wonder about replacing the rear drum shoes at the time but didn't because A) The new shoes didn't look like they had any more meat on them than the ones already on the car and B) They seemed rather expensive for shoes that don't even have to work on a spinning wheel, all they have to do is hold. ( As an aside, it to me a while to figure out (watching YouTube vids) that Yanks call the handbrake the "Emergency Brake" or "Ebrake". Dunno why, the handbrake is the last thing I'd be reaching for in an emergency...seems a good way to perform a 180.) Agree about the old drums. I had a motorcycle with TLS (twin leading shoe) drums and it was more than adequate. Although as you say, brake fade was the issue if you braked hard for any length of time. Maybe some kind of super-ventilated drum would produce good brakes? On another point my brakes now seem to be pulsing at lowish speeds. Any idea what causes that? A warped disc? A disc not properly fitted? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Funny you mention drums, they're still being used a lot on artic trailers, in fact my employer has put a lot of new tanker trailers on the road over the last few years and we've gone back completely to drums on those trailers, disc brakes no better braking at all and no end of trouble with seizing and other issues, regularly needing new calipers discs and pads to make the required braking effort, the drum braked models just keep giving trouble free service with standard regular maintenance year after year, my tank trailer is 3 years old now and has covered some 350k kms, original brake shoes are barely worn. Most cars don't need rear disc brakes at all, its image, large rear drums give you a much better and simpler park brake and they are generally trouble free, notice most pick ups stick with rear drums. Anyway, your park brake shoes, unless they're breaking up or severely scored all i would do with them is roughen the friction surface up and lube the linkage and pivot points well (check the bonding of the shoe friction material is solid, if a shoe detaches it causes a serious problems, ask Volvo owners), the drum inside disc design is in my humble the best solution for parking and general brakes out there, its an expensive system to make other designs are not better they are just cheaper and easier to manufacture, drum inside disc is virtually trouble free and allows the rear calipers to be simple affairs similar to the fronts, no troublesome self adjusters going to give you headaches...self adjusting rear calipers incorporting the park brake are one of the few weaknesses in Hondas in my opinion and don't get me started on pointless electric parking brakes, a solution to a problem that never existed and that no one asked for. Best to fit the brakes and adjust the park brake up roughly then take it for a drive using the park brake carefully on and off a few times to wear the shoes to the drums, then readjust, remember to start with a slackened handbrake cable, that's the last thing to adjust, also you should apply the park brake gently every now and again, especially in winter, to keep the friction area clean and free from rust build up, that rust when it gets bad can cause massive wear grooves in otherwise unworn brake shoes, had exactly that on a W124 Mercedes. Pulsing can sometimes be caused by partial seizure, you might have a sticking slider (could be any one of all 4 calipers) maybe a pad isn't retracting properly or if seized badly enough you could be stopping on one pad one side because a seized slider won't allow proper movement, removing the pads and seeing how they've worn should give you an idea whats afoot, hard driven cars can suffer with grabbing because if you stop from a high speed or worse several hard stops and then when you come to rest keep your foot on the brake pedal some brake material can transfer onto the hot disc and this takes a lot of driving to remove, the trick after a hard stop is to bring the car to rest then release the brake as you stop and move the car again a few inches then stop on the park brake without retouching the footbrake...there clear as mud my explanations 🙄 I suspect if you give the brakes a good going over plus new materials if required that pulsing will disappear, but check you don't have a split CV boot cos a CV running out of grease can give odd pulsing too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 unfortunately environment and H&S good excuses to make cheaper products and they can make more money not just through cost reduction but through fact you need 2 or 3X the replacements due to short service life (great for environment is all that extra service parts and packaging) . Don't get started on electric handbrakes lol, classic stupidity partly to cause complexity and make you need use professional services and require more equipment and service/repair data . Amazing thing as well is most vehicle owners will have no idea how use their electric brake in an emergency Lot of hassle when faulty as well, i've been called out to release faulty/dead parking brakes by disconnecting the harness and using jump pack power drive motors or dismantle when motor/mechanism failed so could recover it easily, get lot of diy guys who get in a mess as well when procedures don't go right and needs high level scan tools or service data recalibrate/set brakes. On to the original post ... Checking brakes fully be good idea, certainly check slide pins, piston and pad movement free . Most people/garages don't do brakes well, I like use knew brake hardware clips in most instances and these tend be extra rather than included with brake pads, discs are so cheap these days refacing them is not viable, copperslip is a big no no as not suitable for most brake job needs, silicone grease ceramic brake grease and red rubber grease only things should be using on brakes and hydraulics . We use ADL Apec Brembo Juratek brakes for run of the mill oem replacement applications, Juratek being more budget option but we had no issues with them and product better than eurotrash parts brands and most other lower cost options . Disc warping can cause pulsing in pedal as can deposits on disc or even abs/brake hydraulic faults . I wouldn't say forester brakes bad feeling generally, start with good install and inspection of some new decent end brakes and see how plays out . 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 Thanks Mr B. I didn't know about Coppaslip being bad on brakes. Will take heed and get the right lubes for the front brake overhaul. I've never had any "moments" in the Forester (apart from that "first brake of the day" at my downhill T junction) it's just the brakes have never felt sharp. Only reason I'm looking into the brakes is that my wife mentioned the same thing and she rarely comments on any mechanical issues (she once drove several miles with a completely deflated rear tyre, only commenting that the car "feels old") That, and the fact that I drove my mothers Honda Jazz the other day and my first thought was "hmmm good brakes" (quickly followed by "horrible steering"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Well hopefully pads and disks and calliper slides in a state and big improvement can be had from quality new rotors and pads and general good clean up. obviously got something going on due to pulsing in pedal and fact wife noticing brakes feel weak . hopefully it not abs or master cylinder related . I guess copperslip usable as anti-squeal paste on caliper piston edge to pads and caliper fingers to outer pad but it not suitable for slides and shouldn't be used in pad retaining points . silicone grease is good versatile product covering lot of uses and do most brake needs besides hydraulic side where red brake grease best choice . Granville do quite a range including brake grease, silicone grease and red rubber grease in tubs or 70gram tubes that reasonably priced . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 Cheers Mr B. I'll look at the Granville stuff and follow the advice from Judd about getting discount alerts for discs and pads. I don't think the pulsing is an ABS or Master Cylinder issue. "Pulsing" is the wrong word because the pedal feel doesn't pulse it just stays fixed. Rather, it is as if there is a point on each wheel rotation where the brakes are having slightly more effect. The frequency is directly related to road/wheel speed. Hopefully just a warp or sticky part somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 GSF current 60% off brakes oil and filters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Judd said: GSF current 60% off brakes oil and filters. Thanks Judd, I'll get on it now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Judd said: GSF current 60% off brakes oil and filters. What do you reckon to their own brand front discs? Any good? (Brembos are £146 odd even with 60% off!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Just looked 2010 Forester up, hopefully yours are 294mm vented, Brembo come up at £69.50 for a pair, the small discs 280mm are much more expensive for some reason coming in @ £146, and no i wouldn't be paying that either and would be looking elsewhere. eBay try listing 124191353678 for smaller Brembo discs plus pads £128 all in, i have no knowledge of the seller this is just an example for you after 5 mins searching. Also, never used these people but prices look keen enough, bookmarking them myself. https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/brake-disc-10132/subaru/forester/forester-sh/30814-2-0-awd?supplier[0]=65 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 12, 2021 Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 Thanks for the links & help. I'll take the wheel off and measure the discs that are on the car. That's the easiest way to work out what I need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 If you're taking a wheel off, suggest you whip a pad out too, then stencil it pressing hard on a piece of card, both sides, that way not only do you have the correct pad sizing, its an easy double check you have all the correct parts before starting full dismantling. I do this when i first service a new to me car and keep that piece of card in the service records, makes buying parts much easier months or years from now when you've forgotten the sizes you need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 autodoc are okay, comes from germany generally, is about 3 different websites that bassically same suppliers. Prices can be good and if buying several items shipping cost is minimal extra .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 Thanks MrB, i'd never heard of them before, how i read it there's free delivery over £140, by the time you've bought any pair of discs plus pads all round you're not far of that for the the stuff we run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 Really tricky to identify the correct pads at Autodoc. They list four different pads, at different prices, with almost identical dimensions. Some sets almost double the price of others? Bit of a minefield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 29 minutes ago, Wulbert said: Really tricky to identify the correct pads at Autodoc. They list four different pads, at different prices, with almost identical dimensions. Some sets almost double the price of others? Bit of a minefield. Figured it out. The more expensive pads are made from Brembo's "X" material, high performance stuff. I'll go with the plain vanilla kit. I'm becoming on of those annoying old farts who drives at 50mph everywhere to save fuel. I have placed an order with Autodoc for Brembo front discs, pads and new pads for the rear. This will give me Brembo kit on all four wheels. Sadly, GSF didn't have a 277mm Brembo disc for my car, only Bendix. I'm sure Bendix is good kit ( German company?) but might as well stay with one make all round for the same price. Autodoc sneaked in an £8.95 delivery charge at the last minute which slightly annoys, but at £135 delivered for Brembo front discs and pads all round I can't complain. Thank you very much for the help sourcing parts Mr B. and Judd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 yeah you need be over 140 for free shipping as judd highlighted . Before the new year brexit changes autodoc was quite a bit cheaper . We used them quite a bit as allow getting quality brands we wanted at prices better than garbage at local factors . I use bulk the price up with Mapco HPS line front & rear drop links, they proved be pretty and was £8 a piece last year, now closer to 12 . I would avoid GSF Halfords and ECP, awful pricing/discount scams, poor knowledge and stock a lot of monkey metal brands . Only got 3 small chain/independent motor factors near me and only one of them is proper oldschool in terms of service knowledge and quality parts and consumables . Hope you get noticeable improvement once fitted . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr B said: yeah you need be over 140 for free shipping as judd highlighted . Before the new year brexit changes autodoc was quite a bit cheaper . We used them quite a bit as allow getting quality brands we wanted at prices better than garbage at local factors . I use bulk the price up with Mapco HPS line front & rear drop links, they proved be pretty and was £8 a piece last year, now closer to 12 . I would avoid GSF Halfords and ECP, awful pricing/discount scams, poor knowledge and stock a lot of monkey metal brands . Only got 3 small chain/independent motor factors near me and only one of them is proper oldschool in terms of service knowledge and quality parts and consumables . Hope you get noticeable improvement once fitted . Thanks. I failed to notice the £140 free postage (sloppy reading on my part) Bu**er! I meant to order brake grease and cleaner at the same time and forgot (same as I did last time when I did the rear brakes!) I've found the same here with auto shops. Can't get the old familiar aftermarket brands and even if you do, you wonder if it is still the same company or just a branding exercise for junk goods. I keep passing an old-school looking motor factors on my way into town; windows full of stickers, peeling paint, hundreds of boxes in the windows; looks promising, must drop in to check them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted December 14, 2021 Author Share Posted December 14, 2021 Just an update. What made a real difference to the braking sharpness was replacing the rear pads and taking the time to clean up the sliding area for the pads. I also had to grind a small amount of metal off the pads edges and "polish" them so that they were a decent sliding fit in the calliper (instead of a tight fit). This made a significant difference to pedal feel. Much more solid. Don't go mad with the grinding though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 Yeah, cleaning and proper lubing, slide hardware, pad fitment along with decent quality brand part selection is keys to making massive difference and long lasting no come back job . We tend only use Blueprint, textar and apec for standard road car brakes, lot of cheaper end stuff or brands owned by scumbag autofactors like ECP can hinder fitment or give issues in use . A nice brake job is a bit more effort but well worth it ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judd Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 Thanks for updating the thread Wulbert, wish others would do the same after someone like MrB has given his time and knowledge. Just rereading my waffle from earlier, i missed something out and was reminded when you mentioned having to shave down the edges of the new pads slightly to make a nice sliding fit. On many, probably the vast majority, of calipers the pad edges sit in and slide as they wear on stainless steel sprung anti rattle clips, these clips invariably end up with crud underneath over time, so when you next do the brakes remember to ping those clips off, give them a good wire brushing and the caliper underneath where they fit, an old small cold chisel is handy at this point for scraping that crud from the nooks and crannies of the caliper where these clips fit, then refit and be amazed how the new pads just slide gently into place where before you whipped the spring clips off it was a real struggle to get them in. Note i sometimes give the barest wipe of coppaslip between the anti rattle clip and caliper if the caliper is starting to show signs of corrosion, and i do mean just a sliver enough to help slow further corrosion down but without there being any chance of the stuff being forced out and ending up on the pad itself, its not essential and others may disagree about the coppaslip in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peroni Posted December 14, 2021 Author Share Posted December 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, Judd said: Thanks for updating the thread Wulbert, wish others would do the same after someone like MrB has given his time and knowledge. Just rereading my waffle from earlier, i missed something out and was reminded when you mentioned having to shave down the edges of the new pads slightly to make a nice sliding fit. On many, probably the vast majority, of calipers the pad edges sit in and slide as they wear on stainless steel sprung anti rattle clips, these clips invariably end up with crud underneath over time, so when you next do the brakes remember to ping those clips off, give them a good wire brushing and the caliper underneath where they fit, an old small cold chisel is handy at this point for scraping that crud from the nooks and crannies of the caliper where these clips fit, then refit and be amazed how the new pads just slide gently into place where before you whipped the spring clips off it was a real struggle to get them in. Note i sometimes give the barest wipe of coppaslip between the anti rattle clip and caliper if the caliper is starting to show signs of corrosion, and i do mean just a sliver enough to help slow further corrosion down but without there being any chance of the stuff being forced out and ending up on the pad itself, its not essential and others may disagree about the coppaslip in there. Thanks Judd, good advice. It took so long to update because the new rear pads sat under the workbench for so long. The previous set were less than a year old so I was amazed to find they needed replaced ( the metal "screech" strip in the rear pads did it's job and alerted me. I didn't really think that rear pads could make much difference to the overall brake feel. But they do. I might take the front callipers off and give all the bearing surfaces a good clean and wire brush too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay762 Posted December 15, 2021 Share Posted December 15, 2021 14 hours ago, Judd said: Note i sometimes give the barest wipe of coppaslip between the anti rattle clip and caliper if the caliper is starting to show signs of corrosion, and i do mean just a sliver enough to help slow further corrosion down but without there being any chance of the stuff being forced out and ending up on the pad itself, its not essential and others may disagree about the coppaslip in there. I agree with the need to put some in there but use molyslip as it has a higher temp tolerance than coppaslip - I used coppaslip on my van brakes and it ended up running onto my wheels and staining the alloy. Not had the issue with molyslip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.