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ECU Question


Seminole81
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if I grab a USDM ECU for a hawk STi and throw it on a UK spec STi will it work and run the higher settings? USDM is tuned to 300hp and 300lbs tq. Compared to UK 285/280 (or whatever it is). Just curious as to if it's possible to get cheap and easy power (like maybe flash the ECU to be a US spec instead of a UK spec. This also coincides with Cobb Acessport question I posted elsewhere. Instead of getting a proper map tuned in, grab a accessport and then throw a Cobb map on)

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For the money of a Cobb an a flash map go for a bespoke map instead - Using something like a cobb afterwards to tweak slightly if you change things is fair enough but have something tailored specifically to your car as a baseline and the 98ron that is readily available in this country. The manufacturer maps have degrees of variance to take into consideration conditions of use, fuel quality etc. Cobb maps - like a lot of flash maps - will be fine for generic application but given the amount of money you have spent on your motor start with something bespoke for you, then tweak from there.

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12 minutes ago, matt said:

I wouldn't sure way to fudge your engine up 

usdm for instance would be mapped for yank crap fuel which is about 35 ron

and Japan mostly use 100-105

I'm sure this was discussed in the Holy MPG Bateman thread.

US 93 Octane is like UK 98 RON. If that were the case, surely the USDM would be mapped with worse specs for worse fuel? The ECU should automatically adjust to the type of fuel you use.

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19 minutes ago, Jay762 said:

For the money of a Cobb an a flash map go for a bespoke map instead - Using something like a cobb afterwards to tweak slightly if you change things is fair enough but have something tailored specifically to your car as a baseline and the 98ron that is readily available in this country. The manufacturer maps have degrees of variance to take into consideration conditions of use, fuel quality etc. Cobb maps - like a lot of flash maps - will be fine for generic application but given the amount of money you have spent on your motor start with something bespoke for you, then tweak from there.

Well, this is kinda my thoughts. But I'm not planning on doing a rebuild for the next few years, so I was thinking Cobb and then use their Stage 1 map to get a bit of extra power as I only am using for generic application at the moment. I'd get a proper tune from someone once I did the full rebuild. Was just thinking outloud.

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A bespoke map on your standard car has the potential to get the car running more efficiently and give greater driveability, the generic subaru map tends to have cars running rich to protect the engine for a large degree of operating parameters, height from sea level, temperature and fuel quality etc.

If you put a high flow panel filter with a higher flowing exhaust system compared to standard (sports cat, straight through link pipes etc), replace the fuel pump with something that supplies slightly higher pressure to ensure your motor doesn't run lean during tuning and something like an ECUtek map which will then tailor the fuel to the new airflow.

The ECUtek license will stay with you so even if you then rebuild the engine it will only require a map / dyno time and not the additional cost of the license.

On a slightly more risk averse note some dyno time and a map will give an overall view of engine / car health giving a known baseline where as the cobb product will make changes irrespective of any adverse conditions

These chaps are not too far from you why not drop in and get an opinion from them? - they have experience of Scoobs also

http://www.thegtrshop.com/

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13 hours ago, matt said:

Nope Ron is a unit of measurement I think I know they are simple and still use inches but the fuel is crap 

 

 

Yeah I know mate. US measure differently obviously like you say, but I know that 93 Octane in the US (which is what it's advertised at on the pump) is 98 RON here in the UK. Almost 100% positive. Either way, the ECU should adjust for that.

 

14 hours ago, Jay762 said:

A bespoke map on your standard car has the potential to get the car running more efficiently and give greater driveability, the generic subaru map tends to have cars running rich to protect the engine for a large degree of operating parameters, height from sea level, temperature and fuel quality etc.

If you put a high flow panel filter with a higher flowing exhaust system compared to standard (sports cat, straight through link pipes etc), replace the fuel pump with something that supplies slightly higher pressure to ensure your motor doesn't run lean during tuning and something like an ECUtek map which will then tailor the fuel to the new airflow.

The ECUtek license will stay with you so even if you then rebuild the engine it will only require a map / dyno time and not the additional cost of the license.

On a slightly more risk averse note some dyno time and a map will give an overall view of engine / car health giving a known baseline where as the cobb product will make changes irrespective of any adverse conditions

These chaps are not too far from you why not drop in and get an opinion from them? - they have experience of Scoobs also

http://www.thegtrshop.com/

Yep, I knew that about the stock map. Literally, I don't plan on doing much for a few years engine mod wise, hence why I was thinking this. Maybe a new filter and that's it until I can sink a decent amount into a load of extras and then mod. I dunno, was just thinking outloud as I've got some contacts in the States that could get me a USDM ECU for cheap or nowt.

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If it was me - I wouldn't because I do not understand where the extra bhp comes from.

If I could have the motor and the two ECU's and some dyno time to understand what is different between the two I would be happier (I have made some Max Power inspired cheap mods in the past and it has resulted with increased cost, in some cases a dangerous motor and the realisation that a lot of the 'experts' they were interviewing were clueless or deliberately lying) . If your buddies across the pond can throw some light on what the differences are then it would de-risk it somewhat.

The map itself - as far as I know and will always stand to be corrected - will not correct for the fuel type it is set up to run rich so can cope with a wide variety of fuel qualities. The table the computer refers to will have a fixed set of figures that will be used dependant on revs, throttle position, pressure and air flow. This means there is no learning function of the map itself. When a car is mapped for a specific fuel it means the look up table parameters have been changed to suite the higher RON fuel burn characteristics with the Air fuel ratio remaining constant. If you then go back to a lower RON the mixture will then be off because the tolerances for fuel qualities are no longer there

I dont know but I would guess that the USDM may be running slightly higher boost to get the higher BHP, that way the fuel map remains constant across the range. If that is the case you could address that on your own motor with the existing ECU and boost controllers or adjusting the wastegate controller but then my risk averse flag is waving as if you are to do that why not get it done with an associated map and ECU settings tweaked to accommodate the increase in boost.

prior to your engine plans as an interim step I would suggest a high flow fuel pump, panel filter and a cat back exhaust with less restrictive resonators (consider a sport cat at additional cost or de-cat link pipe for less ;) ) and a map you will realise an easy 300 bhp and probably get better fuel economy with peace of mind that you wont be melting pistons etc

Any additional engine work will then potentially be complimentary to those mods (obviously if you go FMIC, twisted turbo etc it wont)

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From what I was lead to believe, the type UK was tuned down from USDM and Jap version. No idea why. Boost is standard across the board at 14.5psi from the factory, so it can't be that? I dunno though, that's why I was asking. I'll see if someone knows...probably not though, I scoured the Internet before posting to no avail.

I was under the impression that the ECU could recognize the different octanes to a degree. Not massively, but the difference between say, 97 RON and 99 RON (V Power if you will). If you put 97 in the ECU automatically retards the engine a bit to cope with the fuel change, albeit it's not advised.

As for the plans, I have no idea if it's got an updated pump. I really should check that. I know I've got a Sard FPR though so I have wondered about it. Filter is fairly cheap and easy so will probably do that sooner than later. Any suggestions on which to go for? I love the looks of the HKS ones but they're ££££. When I bought the car, they said it had a Zero Sports intake pipe, but I'm not sure what they're on about there because I just see abnormal airbox..I've got a cat back Mitsubo already as well as that came on the car. I have played with the idea of getting a custom map, but I didn't want to spend £400 on it and then buy something like a decat and need another tune...maybe I should just get the decats and then go for the tune...

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The JDM versions were tuned for the higher RON which would give you a better performance - have no ideal about USDM though....

You may already have an uprated pump then if your have the FPR in place, filters, plenty to choose from go for one that doesn't need oiling, pipercross, cosworth etc. The zero sports intake pipe connects the airbox to the turbo intake I believe - do you have a photo of your engine bay, they are supposed to increase airflow in as well.

It sounds like you have all the initial steps taken, my opinion go for the map, once you have the licence any further work is just dyno time.

 

 

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1 hour ago, matt said:

no a ecu isnt clever enough to read what you put in at the pump.... unless its diesel 

It's clever enough to read the octane though and that moves the timing accordingly? The better fuel and timing change would be why when people put in better higher octane fuel in cars tend to run better. An example would be putting regular fuel into a Civic and it gets say 45mpg. Put a better grade fuel in and you get 47mpg and a general performance increase.

 

2 hours ago, Jay762 said:

The JDM versions were tuned for the higher RON which would give you a better performance - have no ideal about USDM though....

You may already have an uprated pump then if your have the FPR in place, filters, plenty to choose from go for one that doesn't need oiling, pipercross, cosworth etc. The zero sports intake pipe connects the airbox to the turbo intake I believe - do you have a photo of your engine bay, they are supposed to increase airflow in as well.

It sounds like you have all the initial steps taken, my opinion go for the map, once you have the licence any further work is just dyno time.

 

 

Makes sense about the JDM ones...but not about the USDM which has the same spec as JDM (and worse fuel by all accounts).

Yep that's what I'm thinking with the pump. No idea how to check other than removing it though, and that's not especially easy at the moment as I have my son seat in the back and it involves removing seats blah blah blah time. Could move to front, but don't know how to disable airbag (fuse?) and I'm not too sure about that even as I haven't had it in for the recall yet. Don't want to mess too much with the safety stuff. Looks like you maybe right with the intake pipe. That's not what I would of classed it as, but terminology gets crossed easily you know, transmission/gearbox, hood/bonnet, etc haha. Any super big advantages to splashing on a kit like the HKS one over just a Cosworth panel filter that sits inside the air box? Obviously the kit would be better I'm assuming. From other car knowledge I'd say cold air would be best, but I lack the Subaru knowledge...K&N do a few different types (cold air, short ram, Typhoon (which I thought was the best). Not much room in Subaru bays compared to other cars I've played with!

Guessing the zero sports but is one of the bits that comes on this:

http://scoobyworld.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=47_66_611&products_id=1235

 

So I could just go for something like this and it would be the same as the kit above (but with a Zero Sports part instead of a HKS bit)

http://scoobyworld.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=47_66_611&products_id=1234

IMG_2993.JPG

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The silver pipe in the picture connecting the air box to the black tube is what I understand to be the Zero sports intake tube.

At this point save your money just go for a panel filter, Subaru (as do all manufacturers) spend a lot of time and money researching the air flow in and out of the engine. The stock filter can be restrictive so an aftermarket panel will help with that. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an aftermarket panel filter in there already given money has been spent on a shiny tube...

When you want to start pulling your engine apart consider induction kits - or not - at that point, to hit 300bhp in that motor its not necessary.

Given the apparent money spent already on hoses, FPR, exhaust etc I wonder if it has been mapped already??

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2 hours ago, matt said:

Any decent tuner will check a license for free 

Not true. Scooby Clinic said it is not possible to check for EcuTek licence. If they connect their equipment and there was no licence it would automatically add one which would cost you £300. Thats what they told me.

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18 hours ago, Jay762 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if there is an aftermarket panel filter in there already given money has been spent on a shiny tube...

When you want to start pulling your engine apart consider induction kits - or not - at that point, to hit 300bhp in that motor its not necessary.

Given the apparent money spent already on hoses, FPR, exhaust etc I wonder if it has been mapped already??

Possibily. I'll have a look. Went to check last night, apparently it's a bit more difficult than just uncoupling the two clips and pulling it off to have a look haha.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be difficult to hit over 300 on the EJ25. Just a tune, considering the Jap and USDM is already at 300...anyone know the rough figures a tune would get on a stock EJ25? £400 for what? 40hp and about 60lbs of torque?

I did ask the question and they reckoned it was a stock map. Boost hits at 1bar peak, so I really don't know. Been meaning to have a flirt with the 320FR Evo another lad at work has...if he walks me then obviously it's stock as he'd have about 35hp on me...mind I played with a Golf GTI that was tuned to 264 he reckons and I caught up to that quickly, and if I was stock I would only have 21hp on him, plus AWD and more torque though.

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7 hours ago, Seminole81 said:

Yeah, I didn't think it would be difficult to hit over 300 on the EJ25. Just a tune, considering the Jap and USDM is already at 300...anyone know the rough figures a tune would get on a stock EJ25? £400 for what? 40hp and about 60lbs of torque?

I did ask the question and they reckoned it was a stock map. Boost hits at 1bar peak

£400 for a license (or not see Matt and HLimes comments) that will support any mapping requirements in the future (just labour costs down the line), correct fuelling for your motor setup taking advantage of the existing mods, tuned for the higher RON fuel so potential for improved fuel economy and driveability, peace of mind as they should check for any fault codes. If you have the electronic / fly by wire throttle you can also option launch control with closed loop boost (gives a fixed constant boost during launch) flat foot shifting (very useful on the school or big shop run) downshift auto blipping, flexible fuel useage so allows you to run higher levels of ethanol (with the mods you have this could result in 400bhp), boost per gear settings allowing variable levels of boost dependant on gear and revs and some BHP and torque increases.

1bar does point toward standard map

My hatch STI EJ25 with the dealer PPP mod put out about 330BHP but I know some tuners have taken the standard STI with circa 300BHP to 340BHP

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Sounds alright. I assume this runs on the current ECU like a Hondata would? Is there any other options for ECUs then other than stand alone EMS, which is what I'm assuming @Tidgy was suggesting buying at around £1500.

I know you suggested the GTR Shop, but I'm thinking of sticking with Jurgen at JM as they've been really good with me and are supposedly getting a dyno in April (birthday in May so could work out well, but I'm thinking Christmas next year probably), or going up to Edinburgh and seeing Andy Forrester. I think I'll wait until I get a decat and check the fuel pump first and then go for it. Think I could make around 350ish maybe a bit more if I have VF43 (need to check that too! Haha)

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Yes the ECUTek will use your existing ECU, there are other options, you can remap your existing ECU, replace the ECU as a whole (Syvecs etc) or add modules which will enable tweaking - Cobb etc - I would have the remap done first though.

I would always go with whom you are confident will do a good job on your motor.

Andy F - wealth of knowledge and great at what he does but as a consequence in demand - veeeerrrrry busy man so some patience may be required :wink: 

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20 minutes ago, Jay762 said:

Yes the ECUTek will use your existing ECU, there are other options, you can remap your existing ECU, replace the ECU as a whole (Syvecs etc) or add modules which will enable tweaking - Cobb etc - I would have the remap done first though.

I would always go with whom you are confident will do a good job on your motor.

Andy F - wealth of knowledge and great at what he does but as a consequence in demand - veeeerrrrry busy man so some patience may be required :wink: 

Aye that was Syvecs @Tidgy recommended.

I had a AEM for my old Honda...but preferred the Hondata actually, which I'm assuming is more like ECUTek (and MegaSquirt).

More than confident Jurgen would do a fine job...I just know Andy F is the boy...and I have time on my side 😉👍🏻 Would probably actually be better anyways as then I could book in months in advance and plan the trip.

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