Paul888 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Hi all thought is ask your opinions before panicking, lately the impreza 99 uk wrx ej20g has been losing water out of the header tank, i’ve been checking it weekly and although it’s not overheating by the end of the week the tank empties itself, there has been brown gunk on the cap i’ve wiped it off, and refilled tank with fresh anti freeze but a week later it’s empty. Ive had a look for obvious leaks but can’t see any, yesterday i left it running and it missed when i tried to rev it, only happened once and drove it home and it was fine no missing at all but now i’m thinking head gasket . If it is how do you know which side has gone ? Cheers in advance Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyghost Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Any bubbles in the overflow tank? A sniff test could help diagnose. When you say "which side", if it is head gasket don't try to fix just one side and even then don't just do the head gasket. You'll want to refresh the whole bottom end for.peace of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul888 Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share Posted October 29, 2017 To be honest i’ve not checked the bubbles in the tank situation will do tomorrow thanks . When you say refresh the whole hole bottom end what do you mean ? split the casing and do complete rebuild ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mngtuugii Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I think, 1. Both head oil is coming to one engine oil bank. So, you can change only one head gasket, only if the head gasket is not blown internally to the oil circuit. In other words, you can change only one head gasket, if gasket has not blown internally. You should check your oil does not mixed with water. 2. It is possible that, water is coming from gasket of water pump, not head gasket.3. You should check flexi-hoses of the water circuit. They leak usually. 4. I would check around the radiator such as Drain knob, pipe clamps etc.Sent from my iphone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul888 Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 Yes thank you, i don’t have any oil and water mixed which is one good thing, i’m going to check water pump today it is possible it could be this . The car does not over heat at all. I will check all hoses etc . 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 If you catch them early and only loosing small amount of water no need do a complete rebuild . NOTE: this based on inspection and decision when looking at engine, many in no way need a full bottom end and I done many 2.5 heads only in last decade and only had one back and that not due bottom end issue . Pull your plugs as they likely tell you what going on. gas analyser on rad cap can be good but some of these leak so little at low temps or lower cylinder pressures/rpm they hard detect . Good thing is those hard detect are normally easy repaired top end only, assuming bottom end not shafted and knocking already from other issues such as poor oil/oil level, over fuelling etc . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul888 Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 Cheers Mr B haven’t any issues with knocking etc so hopefully at worst headgasket i’ll inspect and test if i find anything either way i’ll post up . 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Mr B said: If you catch them early and only loosing small amount of water no need do a complete rebuild . NOTE: this based on inspection and decision when looking at engine, many in no way need a full bottom end and I done many 2.5 heads only in last decade and only had one back and that not due bottom end issue . you've been lucky with that gamble, question is though, if one did fail would you charge for the second build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Tidgy said: you've been lucky with that gamble, question is though, if one did fail would you charge for the second build? It not a gamble, trouble is you guys don't deal with this day in day out so only know half the story . The claim every bottom end is going be junk because head gasket gone is nonsense and again half the story. Small amount of water being drawn in and combusted will do no real harm, combustion cycle is not greatest stress on bearing shells, the change of direction from top dead centre and bottom dead centre is greatest load they see and far greater than power stroke. Sure extreme water ingress to cylinder could cause damage but that level of water ingress easy spot . Bottom end is indeed week as shells narrow due to boxer design, biggest killer of these is water in oil, p155 poor fuel mapping, oil pump issue or poor oil or low oil . I give customer choice and my opinion from 25yrs of doing it, I wouldn't risk doing a top end if I thought high chance bottom end an issue, any slight clue to bottom end being a risk or engine a lemon/very high mile to start with and we approach it different, same as a track car with a built motor likely get treated different to a standard normal road use na or boosted motor . Reality is it absurd and far from professional to turn a head gasket into a full short block build when no need for it and making customer pay for it because better for you or your shop policy ... UK is a tiny market for subaru, go to canada, usa or Oz and see how the 2.5 turbo head gaskets get dealt with. As for my warranty, we stand by all work we do within reason, you get some real stupid customers so always odd scenario when pleasing everyone impossible and we would have fight a warranty claim as they taking the p155 . Overall if engine came back with further failure and it down to our work or judgement we likely eat the full cost as only really a time burden over parts cost, sometimes customer may pay for few parts perhaps pending in exact problem and time span into/over warranty . I done enough of these to know what good and bad so absolute no luck involved, sure you can't do everything with 100% perfect result but even full rebuilds can and do go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 mate of mine was advised by a highly regarded tuner bottom end didnt need doing, less than 1000 miles after the build (not even run in), guess what, bottom end let go. He had to go as far as court to get his money back, which he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Always a story, I seen new built engines at over 12 grand bill spin a bearing before had chance spin a cog in the transmission I seen engines with bottom end knock that should not be running The full story is YOU CAN replace just head gaskets without needing a bottom end rebuild. Obviously this based on engine checks and visual inspection and usage type all taken into consideration before decisions made but small head gasket leaks especially if burning the coolant will not damage bottom end easily. I don't make a living gambling lol, if it wasn't practical I and many other mechanics and engine builders the world over wouldn't be doing it and would be out of business or loosing money weekly lol . thousands get done top end only and bottom failure afterwards is extreme low percentage and many that did may not be related to HG issue . most bottom end issues I see is oil starvation poor oil, on tuned cars bad mapping running rich and thinning oil or built with poor bearing clearances to start with Got a Forester in at moment, that got bad rod knock and reason for that was rust hole in sump lol (that pretty common), we waiting on a used engine for that one as not economical to customer to rebuild . Used engines well yes that IS bit of a gamble lol, knowing your breakers and them knowing you helps massively though ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 well its a risk if you don't so we'll just to agree to disagree :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 You evaluate the engine and do appropriate work for mechanical state on job by job basis . you can't conclude it a risk from one mates experience and few forum threads lol . The pub talk of bottom ends must be done is complete nonsense, if said it wise thoroughly evaluate short block before commencing with repair route then that different story but very small coolant consumption HG issues is not a "risk" and DO NOT damage bottom end easily. I seen rich mapping kill more short blocks than coolant issues lol . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 27 minutes ago, Mr B said: You evaluate the engine and do appropriate work for mechanical state on job by job basis . you can't conclude it a risk from one mates experience and few forum threads lol . The pub talk of bottom ends must be done is complete nonsense, if said it wise thoroughly evaluate short block before commencing with repair route then that different story but very small coolant consumption HG issues is not a "risk" and DO NOT damage bottom end easily. I seen rich mapping kill more short blocks than coolant issues lol . my info isn't based on one failure or pub talk, comes from sources with considerably more experience than you. Simply put headgasket failure on a 2.5 is a gamble if you don't do the bottom end at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 No it not a gamble, I been in the game 30 years and although I do realize my humble limits I know the reality of head gasket issues through years of doing them and experience of others with more background knowledge than myself, I know many respected tuners mechanics and engine builders who also do only top end in evaluated cases no drama and no more comeback issues over any other work done . I know a couple US respected subaru specialist who also deal HG only and in large numbers due to amount of 2.5s they have in the US market . The concept that average minor hard detect HG leak without oil contamination will damage bottom end on average otherwise decent engine is simply ridiculous and misinformation . Also this thread is dealing with a ej20 which has far less HG concerns and bottom end drama over the ej25's . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Should have been clear, I'm talking solely 2.5 here. I'd be interested to know who the tuners are not doing them, because the more well respected ones i know of now wont rebuild without bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Don't look at it purely from "tuners" approach, If a road use 2.5 with 60 to 80K turns up running A1 and passing all inspections with full FSH and with only minimal HG symptoms as diagnosis you going give it a full short block build and the customer the bill ! that just complete nonsense and up scaling the job when not needed . Lot of tuners approach is total nonsense as is some of the tuning parts they push, on highly tuned cars and ones built as track toys can need approach to be different but to say must be done and it a "RISK" is total nonsense without evaluating each engine and customer on individual basis . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 If there is no risk why do others go? Advised not to do bottom end, bottom end failed, given bill for second engine, went to court, won, second engine paid for. Not only that but when the engines stripped damage is often found to the bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage bulldogs Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Although i haven't ever worked on a 2.5ltr or done a head gasket because its failed (only when building a engine) i can see both of your points .If someone comes in with a modded 2.5ltr running higher than standard boost or bad service history , un mapped mods , headgasket faliure hasn't been noticed straight away (overheated a few times) ect ... i dare say those are the ones that would be a risk .But if a low milage , well looked after standard 2.5ltr has only just started to burn a bit of coolant without any oil contamination. its probably unethical to give the customer a £3.5k + bill for what might only be £4k car . I dont want to add fuel to the fire , just point out that circumstances and customers budgets/ usage differ .Plus the op has a 2ltr and I've run outta popcorn [emoji8]Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr B Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Without dealing with Tidgy's friends incident hands on I would have no idea to who at fault or if work was ill advised or other issues involved . I here so many tales and stories I don't bother listening unless have personal involvement as it meaningless info generally without seeing vehicle and those involved hands on . Lot of opinions and lot of poor information pressing that bottom ends must be done and more so as this OP enquiring on a ej20, people best doing real research and preferably hands on research. All owners and professionals in the trade are welcome to their opinion and who you choose do your work and how you do it is entirely your choice or your chosen professional and most professionals will stand by their work . I've done loads of tops ends and not had one bottom end back and don't expect to in any abnormal comeback volume, sure it possible but so is oil pump failure, pickup failure, piston failure etc etc . The 2.5s are quite weak lumps but you can't give every one a bill for a full built motor lol that just unprofessional and certainly unethical for mr joe average in his 80K XT with impeccable SH/Maintenance and most minor of HG issues . As I say many times you got deal with jobs on individual engine and customer circumstances, i've stripped 2.5's and found bottom ends fine, cams and standard pistons being more common area needing attention and parts. Bottom end on 2.5 bigger issue on tuned cars and ones that used aggressively . p155 poor mapping and p155 poor owner being biggest issue . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul888 Posted December 2, 2017 Author Share Posted December 2, 2017 8 hours ago, classicwrx said: Paul888 - I know his sounds obvious but I really recommend checking out all of your hoses, caps etc properly before you keap to any conclusions. I was totally convinced recently that I had H/G issues but it turned out to be something much less expensive! Reading the horror stories online makes it much easier to think it's something worse than it is. Just my 50p :D Will do cheers :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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