Battery and starting issues with new Forester E-Boxer

[David Coles]

In December last year I traded in my diesel Outback for a newly released Forester E-Boxer. Then came the lockdown and "not going out". After one week my Battery was flat and I needed a jump start. I was able to drive around to charge the Battery again and used it occasionally (every 2 - 3 days) when it started fine. However, a flat Battery every 7 days is really not acceptable (particularly for a car which also has another huge Battery sitting under the floor). The only help the dealer could provide was to say that "new cars are like that, you need to drive it more".  This is not acceptable. If I leave my car at the airport for a week or two, I should not expect to come back to a flat battery and the need to make a call to the AA or RAC, or to find someone to give me a jump start.

However, a bigger problem occurs if I leave my car for longer than about 7 days. As anticipated the car is totally flat. However when I try to jump start it, as soon as I connect the jump leads to the battery, all hell breaks loose - the alarm goes off incessantly and every light on the dash comes on, including all the fault lights. Even worse the only thing that does not work is the starter - there is no sign of the motor turning over let alone starting. The first time this happened I had to call out the AA who couldn't fix it either and had to get a recovery vehicle to take it back to the dealer. The dealer said it was "just a flat battery" and that as soon as they charged it up it was fine. I don't know how they managed that with all the lights and alarms going off as soon as any charging lead is connected to the battery. 

This happened again yesterday after the car had been standing about 8 days. I had invested in a small "powerpack" that should start the car 3 or 4 times on a full charge. However, that does not work at all because as I said, the starter seems to be disabled when the car goes into it's frantic flashing mode.

So I have two important questions:

1. Can anyone tell me how to start my car, or recharge the battery when it goes into this "frantic" mode? 

2. When is Subaru going to fix this problem so that I can leave my car at home, at the airport or anywhere else for over a week and come back to a car that I am sure will start?  This must be a possible fix - otherwise the car is not really fit for purpose.

Anyone?

[Judd]

I'm no expert or mechanic, are you certain nothing is staying on, eg something as simple as a vanity mirror light, assuming nothing still live would it be possible to fit a throw switch to one of the Battery terminals connections so the starter Battery can be physically disconnected easily without using a spanner whilst the car is parked for a week or more.

I agree this is ridiculous, but with these modern designs so much is running constantly it might be in your best interests to find a way around this so you arn't inconvenienced and the dealer doesn't faff too much guessing the issues.

[Mr B]

your best bet is getting your money back and buying a super clean model from early 2000 .
Is well documented issue on Battery drain on these .
Absolute nothing environmentally friendly or better in most new car concepts unfortunately .
They have short lifespan, consume huge amount of parts and service materials causing lot of waste including your hard earned money .
I'm a mechanical engineer with my own business and all my personal cars are 15 to 20 years old and trouble free and due to minimal part and service material and actual vehicle lifspan they more environmentally friendly based on a manufacture to recycle lifespan  ...

[Mr B]

thought of this thread this morning while in a local Subaru dealers picking up overnight order parts.
The service desk was dealing with customer with same issue of dead Battery, service stating it not used enough, owner said how can use it when left at airport or away for work , same scenario 2 weeks and it dead .
Is a big Issue, not just Subaru (BMW worse) although they state about 2weeks no use manual charging in the handbook .

Issue is mainly from modules waking up at intervals for checks such as handbrake state and so forth all causing unreasonable parasitic draw .
Personally I see it as major engineering flaw for average real world usage scenario.
Anything less than 6 to 8 weeks seems unreasonable to me .
Having a starter Battery on a solenoid controlled  isolator controlled via alarm/key state could of been useful as could more effort in long term current draw or a long term park mode perhaps .
2 or even 3 weeks is unacceptable, even if not having no starts from flat Battery the Battery lifespan be awfully short from prolonged low charge state causing increased sulfation killing battery capacity and as such snowballing issue .
All this charging batteries via mains, unnecessary driving to charge, unnecessary driving to dealers, short component life is not environmentally good by any means !

Sad illogical modern world unfortunately  ...

[D3lux]

The car is still under warranty so you or anyone else messing with it risks invalidating your warranty.

From what you describe the car has a 'parasitic drain' on the Battery or a fault within the Battery its self. Battery problems usually show up relatively easy, parasitic drains can take days to trace as the drain may not happen all the time.

Your local dealer will have to submit a printed Battery test showing your battery as faulty before IM will let them claim a new one.

As someone who works in a dealership (not a Subaru one) we were inundated with customers with flat batteries, poor starting faults etc. after the first lockdown. A battery going flat after not being used for a few months doesnt automatically mean there is a fault. For many people, jump starting their car and taking it for a run would solve the problem.

In your dealers defence, they may have assumed this was your problem. At no point do you mention the dealer carrying out a battery test or having to leave the car with them to be tested overnight. Perhaps this is the dealer being a bit too dismissive (in which case, there are plenty more Subaru dealers) or you not really giving them a chance.

I suggest contacting your dealer again, if they dont take you seriously go to another dealer or phone customer services (their number is in your vehicle pack) rather than posting your winge on here. Customer service works both ways in a car dealership and customers giving dealers a chance to fix their car is just as important as the dealership doing a competent job!

Eboxers are high tech and the 12v battery charges up from the high voltage system. These systems are over sensitive and the slightest whiff of a problem your dash will light up with warning lights. The car uses the battery you jump start with to activate the high voltage system. The high voltage system charges it back up and charges the other battery to run the start stop system.

 

[Mr B]

Unfortunately the parasitic drain on them is from module monitoring wake ups mainly that not faults in the raw term but system design issues.
Issue was well known before lockdown but that highlighted it further .
Most people have issue in 2 to 3 weeks and it was airport park overs that first brought issue into public forums .
 

[D3lux]

18 hours ago, Mr B said:

Unfortunately the parasitic drain on them is from module monitoring wake ups mainly that not faults in the raw term but system design issues.
Issue was well known before lockdown but that highlighted it further .
Most people have issue in 2 to 3 weeks and it was airport park overs that first brought issue into public forums .
 

Not really sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you suggesting this problem should be sorted based on advice from unverified users on a forum or should the owner speak to the dealer who supplied the car and is authorised to diagnose and repair it?

What module monitoring? Thru CAN, thru the HV ECU? Why is it waking up? Why would this drain the 12v system? Are you suggesting Toyota have designed a system that monitors its self so intensly the millivolt signals will drain a 12v Battery within a few days

Regardless of the opinions of people on here, an HV car still under warranty should be repaired at a Subaru dealer.

Problems with a Subaru dealer in the way they deal with customers or how accurate their advice is should be sorted out speaking to a dealer or customer service. Not a forum like this.

Subaru dealers, in general are small, family owned dealerships. Bad mouthing them on here isnt going to help them. If they go out of business, big PLC dealer groups will move in and customer service will suffer (happened to many Toyota and Honda dealers) or the UK will be too small a market and Subaru will give up on it (Like Mitsubishi and Daihatsu).

Take your car to your dealer, give them as much info as you can and let them sort your expensive new car for free.

Until recently I did work at a Subaru dealer (and attended the E Boxer course). I can confirm other models had issues with the OE batteries failing to start the car intermittantly, passing Midtronics Battery tests etc. Some cars would start fine but could be immobilised by tapping the top of the Battery with a screwdriver handle! I dont remember an E Boxer having this issue but they did have other issues regarding clearing fault codes before leaving the factory etc. These are all things your dealer should be sorting looking at. Subaru have some genuinely talented and experienced tech guys and even if a dealer cannot get anywhere they are always happy to be given a challenge. Again, this is something a dealer will deal with, not a back street garage, not  bunch of randoms on a forum.

7

[Mr B]

The wake up and current draw on these models in parked sleep mode is well known by subaru internally .
It well known to me too as we done 3 day current logging on 2 customers who had these new models with no resolution from dealers to date ...

Owner doesn't need take online criticism as he having his own issues

For sure he best speak to the service team due to warranty but doubt he get it fully resolved but hopeful something get done improve the issues some users get .

[Mr B]

Hopefully better subaru and dealer end result than the EE diesels, as a back street specialist garage we the ones working with owners past the warranty stage trying make the most of those engineering flaws and I don't look forward to similar with the hybrid system ...

[D3lux]

What figures did you get for your current logging? Where did you take the readings from? What models? What are you comparing them to? Why are people with £30,000 cars under warranty turning to independant garages and paying for diagnosis?

The E boxer system is based on tried and tested components developed over years by Toyota. What data is an independent garage seeing that 2 car companies are missing?

Why would you think there will be more problems with the hybrid system? Its simpler, its developed from tried and tested principles older than internal combustion engines, it has less moving parts.

My opinion is this guys dealer probably isnt the most attentive, perhaps the pressure of work made them more dismissive. After lockdown everyone I know in the trade was very busy. I think the guy would receive a more constructive and economical response getting back in touch with them. I know for a fact if he spoke to IM customer service , if the dealer was in the wrong they would have its dealer principle cook dinner for the customer if he asked. This owner is going to get the fastest, cheapest resolution to the problem this way.

I have no doubt there are a great many really good independant garages out there (and I would encourage anyone who uses one to stay loyal and keep them in business) but over the years companies I have worked for have made thousands out of 'specialist' garages who have got it wrong.

You avoided answering any of the specific questions about your tests and the data you got which makes me think you doubt their integrity too. Where does an independant garage get the knowledge to test such new systems? Are you in charge? So you will have taken the appropriate measures inline with the Health and safety at work, 1974 and Electricity at work regulations 1989 that apply even working on the lv side of hybrid and HV cars? As the responsible employer, you will also understand why the HSE insist you understand the importance of allowing only suitably trained staff do this work. The only reason I ask is I have notes from when I done the Subaru E-Boxer course (at Subaru) that back up your predicted readings but also justify them.

Over above that, as a Level 4 IMI Hybrid and EV technician (there are now 30 of us in the UK!) I understand why the current draw appears higher to the 12v Battery in these systems and look forward to explaining why this happens and why it isnt a problem.

If that still fails to pacify you let me know and I will phone the inside guy I know at Subaru (bet he is higher up than your guy!) and we will get some info about what IM thinks about wake up and current draw.

 

Sadly, I would imagine his first question will be....

 

Why doesnt he just take it back to his dealer?!

 

[WRW]

I have a new XV e-boxer (UK) and bad problem with Battery drain. Frustrating and terrible.

Subaru know about this and USA and Canada Legal cases ongoing on this very issue..

HAS anyone got an answer for the ACTUAL problem please?

WHAT is drawing such a current and is the system not going into 'sleep' mode properly?

Are there experts out there to HELP please?

Thank you

Wrw

[Brack]

I'm not an expert, I dont have a clue what the e boxer Battery problem is but I do carry a small portable 12v Battery pack with me that can start my car if I need it.

These are brilliant for emergencies - might be an idea to help you out for now.

I went for UTRAI after seeing reviews on you tube.

Cheers and all the best     

[DAVE71]

Having had a a 2018 Outback with Battery drain problems, some of it caused by lack of use due to illness. I now find myself with a XV eboxer 2021 with Battery drain problems. Luckily I had bought a NOCO car starter for the Outback brilliant piece of kit, the NOCO I mean. I had also fitted an isolater on the Battery terminal on the Outback, strange I never had the drainage problem again.

Back to my latest dilemma the XV, I am using the car three times a week for 10 mile journeys. If the car is stood for three days It struggles to start, I have informed my dealership and had the same reply as the OUTBACK [ we will check out the Battery and the charging ] This is not the PROBLEM the fact that both cars have an over excessive battery drain, the Outbacks being the battery was not capable of coping with lower milage and battery drainage. With the XV having two batteries I thought mistakenly that the one used for starting  would only be used for starting. Not with all the connections on the terminal.

Having written all this the car is lovely to drive. But it is obvious there is a problem with battery drainage that Subaru are clearly ignoring and putting it on the dealership to fob off car owners.

[Justin Time]

Agreed.  Subaru need to acknowledge there is an issue here with some of their modern cars, given the number of complaints online in UK, US and elsewhere.  Either their cars are fit for purpose - meaning you can drive them when and where you want - or they need to offer clear advice on the restricted use of their product due to Battery issues.   It might be an issue that you could pursue under consumer law as customers in the UK have a right to expect products to perform reasonably. 

You could contract IMG group directly with your complaint. Here's the customer relations email address:

customerrelations@imgroup.co.uk

Here's also a reference to consumer law re cars in the UK:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/advice/how-does-the-consumer-rights-act-protect-you-when-you-buy-a-car

or for more details:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/our-work/citizens-advice-consumer-work/the-consumer-rights-act-2015/

Out of interest, how did the Battery isolator work out in use?  What issues were there with stored settings; the alarm; etc.?

I've checked my OB's manual and there's no reference to multiple 'short' journeys (or what counts as a short journey) regarding the Battery care. Again, if it's an issue, there should be a warning (not everyone is mechanically minded!).

Best of luck with your issue.  I'd be grateful if you could keep us informed of any progress.