How much is a good WRX up to 2006 worth and is it worth getting an sti of that year

[Rps]

@Daz-RSK knoes him

 

@Tidgy might do too

[Tidgy]

On 4/27/2017 at 4:41 PM, Sandals said:

My garage have mapped their fair share of Scoobys that's for sure! Everytime I go in there are at least 2 or 3 scoobies getting serviced or worked on

 

bonnet up on the dyno, o dear :( go elsewhere

[Tidgy]

42 minutes ago, Rps said:

@Daz-RSK knoes him

 

@Tidgy might do too

sure its not alice? hang on, who the feck is alice? hahaha

[Sandals]

19 minutes ago, Tidgy said:

bonnet up on the dyno, o dear :( go elsewhere

What's wrong with that?

[Rps]

I second the bonnet up post.its not real world is it as you dont drive round like that lol same as these who have a massive cold airflow sat on the tmic

Tut tut

 

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[Tidgy]

51 minutes ago, Sandals said:

What's wrong with that?

Changes the airflow under the bonnet, so then when you drive it along the road airflow changes so cooling can be affected, the airflow in the bonnet is actually designed to flow through the scoop, under to the engine bulkhead, down the bulkhead and under the car to remove heat away.

 

Bit like when you see an air duct going direct to the scoop or intercooler. Creates a false supply. Best you can get on a dyno is a !Removed! big fan blowing from the front of the car with the bonnet down.

[Rps]

@Tidgy why u copying me lol

[Tidgy]

1 minute ago, Rps said:

@Tidgy why u copying me lol

I was being more geeky :p lol

[Rps]

@Tidgy deffo shows who the inteligent one is lol im just down with the kids

[aucky]

one reason you sould use someone who no's what their doing

 

[Tidgy]

haha yeah seen that before, big oops.

[Daz-RSK]

On 5/2/2017 at 0:06 PM, Tidgy said:

Issues will pop up, how they act to sort it out or fob you off is the important bit for that, there is also how often? once in 50 maps, or every other map?

Time is what it is, however when there are thousands of settings, it's not a 5 minute job to go in a change them hence why 20 mins isn't enough to map a car.

Given that in this context we are talking about road cars then getting every single BHP out of it can push it beyond the level of safety aka reliability. This is what is important in my eyes, when you see mappers consistently getting higher figures than other then ask yourself why?

There is also working practice, a car mapped on a dyno can sometimes have det on the road. If a mapper isn't road testing after a map that is pure bad practice, none of the well regarded mappers would dare not do this part.

Fault finding, if a car isn't taking timing, or more boost, or is detting, or missing why is that? can the mapper figure out the issue to allow it to be put right, or will they just bodge round it?

Tech support, what backup does a mapper have? Sensors are known to be pretty limited in their reliability, so does the mapper have spares available or are you left paying a bill and not getting what you pay for because of a fault?

Final one is blatant dodgy results. Dyno outputs are very easy to manipulate, i've seen a 1.6 none turbo make 350 bhp (was done as a joke at a RR day), they are also fairly easy to pick up, when you see a mapper constantly having questionable graphs its another concern as to what he/she is trying to hide. Or do they simply not have the knowledge to understand the problem, which is a major concern as well.

 

Yeap - totally agree with all of that. But it is difficult to find who is the best of the best of the mappers. I think we tend to go on experience, if we used them before, or others opinions like on here. It's quite subjective, IMHO.

You raised a good point in the last paragraph there. 350bhp out of a non turbo 1.6L. Sounds a bit dodgy, doesn't it. Did anyone see the chart itself - the bhp line vs torque line ? It's probably not something you would remember, as the dyno people were doing it as a joke.

What is difficult to manipulate though (and this is why I asked if anyone read the chart just from interest) is to manipulate the flow of the lines. Forget the Y axes of the chart up each side - the lines is what I am more interested in. 350bhp or 300lb/ft is a snapshot at certain rpms. It's how you get to these that shows the performance.

Let me display something here. I mentioned my mate Joe before - Joe Smith. He placed his car on the rollers this weekend and got this out of it.

Now, my other mate, John Smith, has this chart. Unfortunately, wasted £40 here because there is no indication as to what the chart is showing in values.

What I do know is that cars pump out nearly the same bhp, but not so certain about the torque on this bottom one. The bhp would be iro 300 on this lower chart. 

With no figures above, this is where I start reading the lines. If you notice how high the torque line on this second chart is and how flat it is, from low down. To me, this is quite a fast car off the mark, needs little rpm and runs out of puff. It would be a good 0-60 car but might not have the top end.

The 1st chart is spurious given that the 5252rpm pivot point looks to be near the start of the performance. This would indicate to me, given the torque remains stable from this point and the bhp continues to climb significantly that this is more of a racer and needs a lot of rev to get it to go. It probably has a higher top end, for its bhp output, because it pulls like a train in every gear at 5000rpm upward to 7000+.

Admittedly, we don't know the numbers on the lower chart, so it could be out of 100bhp / 100lb/ft. But given I know these are Scoobies with similar bhp - and if this was a car you wouldn't know but were explained to what they were, you'd come to the same conclusion, the style of charts display a different type of performance.

To me, this is meaningful. But to some others, it is not. I don't really care which one has the greater bhp or torque. The lines provide me the performance given certain rough criteria.

If you now want to know what they are - the top one is a B4 Legacy with twin turbos that come on tune at 5000rpm and can see 170mph, but is hampered by the low rpm torque therefore achieves 60 in mid 5's. The bottom one is a modern WRX, extremely quick off the mark but once above a ton, would struggle with the B4. Tops out at 155 ish. I own (and owned) both of these. But I would take anyone's chart and describe what I see in terms of a broad performance - is it a good 0-60, good top end, good over-taker etc. 

400bhp is excellent - but not if you have to wring every nut and bolt to get it.

 

[Tidgy]

1 hour ago, Daz-RSK said:

Yeap - totally agree with all of that. But it is difficult to find who is the best of the best of the mappers. I think we tend to go on experience, if we used them before, or others opinions like on here. It's quite subjective, IMHO.

You raised a good point in the last paragraph there. 350bhp out of a non turbo 1.6L. Sounds a bit dodgy, doesn't it. Did anyone see the chart itself - the bhp line vs torque line ? It's probably not something you would remember, as the dyno people were doing it as a joke.

What is difficult to manipulate though (and this is why I asked if anyone read the chart just from interest) is to manipulate the flow of the lines. Forget the Y axes of the chart up each side - the lines is what I am more interested in. 350bhp or 300lb/ft is a snapshot at certain rpms. It's how you get to these that shows the performance.

Let me display something here. I mentioned my mate Joe before - Joe Smith. He placed his car on the rollers this weekend and got this out of it.

Now, my other mate, John Smith, has this chart. Unfortunately, wasted £40 here because there is no indication as to what the chart is showing in values.

What I do know is that cars pump out nearly the same bhp, but not so certain about the torque on this bottom one. The bhp would be iro 300 on this lower chart. 

With no figures above, this is where I start reading the lines. If you notice how high the torque line on this second chart is and how flat it is, from low down. To me, this is quite a fast car off the mark, needs little rpm and runs out of puff. It would be a good 0-60 car but might not have the top end.

The 1st chart is spurious given that the 5252rpm pivot point looks to be near the start of the performance. This would indicate to me, given the torque remains stable from this point and the bhp continues to climb significantly that this is more of a racer and needs a lot of rev to get it to go. It probably has a higher top end, for its bhp output, because it pulls like a train in every gear at 5000rpm upward to 7000+.

Admittedly, we don't know the numbers on the lower chart, so it could be out of 100bhp / 100lb/ft. But given I know these are Scoobies with similar bhp - and if this was a car you wouldn't know but were explained to what they were, you'd come to the same conclusion, the style of charts display a different type of performance.

To me, this is meaningful. But to some others, it is not. I don't really care which one has the greater bhp or torque. The lines provide me the performance given certain rough criteria.

If you now want to know what they are - the top one is a B4 Legacy with twin turbos that come on tune at 5000rpm and can see 170mph, but is hampered by the low rpm torque therefore achieves 60 in mid 5's. The bottom one is a modern WRX, extremely quick off the mark but once above a ton, would struggle with the B4. Tops out at 155 ish. I own (and owned) both of these. But I would take anyone's chart and describe what I see in terms of a broad performance - is it a good 0-60, good top end, good over-taker etc. 

400bhp is excellent - but not if you have to wring every nut and bolt to get it.

 

 

Everyone knew as soon as the peak figure came up and all burst out larfing hahaha.

 

Yeah there is much to be said for specing for purpose.

[Daz-RSK]

Yes agreed with that. And car manufacturers are getting better all the time with trying to develop the best torque delivery.

If you are old enough, you'll remember that the best and cheapest way to get performance out of n/a motors in the 1970/80's was through better carb and sorting the cams or even the head. I don't know whether they still do these - they would for older motors but I expect with the VVT and hydraulic lifters and other bits, it's more difficult today.

But this cam modification in motors of the arc was a way of delivering good performance - but not when you are in town traffic because the only mod you'll have is to develop a different style of drive. They were hopeless off the mark and town traffic just became a nuisance.

Gearing is another. Gone are the days where you had a 4 speed box and the cheap way of delivering better economy with better top end was to bolt on another gear. Now the gear ratios don't even meet a 1:1 in some motors in any of the gears, effectively there is no straight drive. But the days of old, they used to just bolt another gear on and with poor torque, that gear just became a lazy gear, no acceleration at all.

 

[aucky]

My mk3 escort wasnt useless off the line with its kent cam and weber on it,use to show up much more modern cars and was no diffrent to drive in town traffic.

 

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[Tidgy]

I only really know late 90's an on im afraid lol

[aucky]

Moding a car back in the 80s was no diffrent really to modern day cars.it was ok sticking carbs and cams in but you still needed someone compatent to tune the car up right or all your mods was just a waste money driving round without them set up right.just now tuners use laptops.

 

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[Daz-RSK]

My Manta GT/E was useless in town traffic. But I was pumping 160 from a unit that was 110 standard. So quite aggressive. 

Also idle'd at about 1200, IIRC. Any lower and it was lumpy. So made for traffic creep issues.