savage bulldogs Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I'm not a mapper just a bit bias with the maf debate (as most of you probably know ) I've tried to list a few of the pros n cons I've experienced [emoji6] I think most delete the maf as some years are prone to failure and the v1 /v2 maf only flows enough to hit 360 hp ,due to its smaller dia tube than v3 onwards (which run 400bhp +) The main bonus would be when going "rotated" and you make the intake side of the turbo bigger dia ie ... by fitting 3" dia coldside intake , intake pipework (including maf delete pipe) and large cone with spun trumpet , which would aid spool. If it's just a maf delete there's no way the ecu can take "air density" reading's into the map . So the mapper has to compensate for colder air and not be able to trim fuel as well . Although this can be lessened by having a air temp sensor installed and calibrated by the mapper . Although a air temp sensor does help with trim you can't trim it as "fine" as you can with a maf . As You can't measure "flow" with the map sensor ,just inlet manifold pressure . My mappers a bit old school but he prefers mafs as he doesn't like relying on just 1 sensor to tell you how much air is available to add to the fuel . you can buy bigger aftermarket mafs but they're not cheap . my mates 3.3 ltr turbo mk1 golf runs a 3" dia coldside, intake pipework and pro am maf [emoji6] If it's not broke .....upgrade it 😊 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyghost Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 If it has been mapped already how do I find out is there anything inside the ecu I can check In your other topic you say you have 13-15 psi. 13psi is roughly 0.9bar and that's standard boost pressure. If mapped they're usually mapped to 1.3bar(18-19psi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay762 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Scoobyghost said: What's the pro Vs con of running mafless? Pro. one less sensor to provide input to ECU so just using the MAP as an input means a more straight forward calculation for the air fuel mixture. The MAP tends to be a more robust sensor and less subject to contamination. Con. As the MAP works on pressure when running off boost or lower revs there is no sensor to tell the ECU what the airflow is so on the map you put in a fixed set of parameters at the point of completing the map. As these are fixed but conditions change the ECU will continue to supply the fixed ration of fuel based upon the original map - this is why the car can run rich, you would always err on the side of caution and have it running rich to protect the engine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngy Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 Very interesting but what boost can the turbo and engine handle in my car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quit Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Mine was 1.5 bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyghost Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Mine peaks at 1.5bar. All depends on general health of the car. Lots of factors will need to be considered to answer "how much boost" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 3:02 PM, savage bulldogs said: We covered it on the ESL mapping course I think thats probably why all marques of turbo cars have a maf when they leave the factory and I'm sure they wouldn't have them fitted if it wasn't needed, as it would save them a fortune If it's not broke .....upgrade it 😊 Hinteresting, wonder how aftermarket differ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay762 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Tidgy said: Hinteresting, wonder how aftermarket differ OEM is tested and sold for a market place of massively varying conditions - operating in Northern Africa with often low fuel quality and air density with high air temperatures but also the same model in the mountains of Japan with snow and high quality 99 Ron plus fuel. Aftermarket equipment particularly items designed to improve performance are sold on the basis that they will be installed with complimentary changes to enable them to function within a narrower band of conditions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngy Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 My car is a 99 and has 70k miles so the engine is in very good condition and sounds good so I can run the boost higher that what it is now then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyghost Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Mine is 172k and in good health. Still not worth asking too much of them. A pal of mine had a blob eye on roughly 88k and the ringlands failed. He had 320hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quit Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 killed a cdb wrx engine with 60k on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 16 hours ago, Jay762 said: OEM is tested and sold for a market place of massively varying conditions - operating in Northern Africa with often low fuel quality and air density with high air temperatures but also the same model in the mountains of Japan with snow and high quality 99 Ron plus fuel. Aftermarket equipment particularly items designed to improve performance are sold on the basis that they will be installed with complimentary changes to enable them to function within a narrower band of conditions. Thats the map rather than the hardware. Typically aftermarket ecu's are technicly far more capable than factory units. Why people replace them, even R8 and lambo's have them replaced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobyghost Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Does any map regardless of ecu allow for correct Afr when mafless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay762 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 3 hours ago, Tidgy said: Thats the map rather than the hardware. Typically aftermarket ecu's are technicly far more capable than factory units. Why people replace them, even R8 and lambo's have them replaced sorry thought you meant a general comparison of OEM vs aftermarket equipment. Agreed the sophistication of many aftermarket ECU's is superior to the OEM but tend to offer additional inputs / functionality but if you take away one sensor that provides correction for a specific set of parameters unless you have an alternative you will be reliant on the map itself and the values it contains. A syvecs unit whilst in itself is a great piece of kit if it is not connected to sensors which provide input it will not provide any corrections as conditions vary other than what is contained within the map Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage bulldogs Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I know ecu's will reduce timing and add fuel if it senses exessive knock but I don't know if it will add fuel if the afr reading from the o2 sensor leans off . The map sensor is capable of reading the negative pressures when off boost but Afaik the maf gives the mapper another airflow reading to help tune the afr finer . I suppose Mpg doesn't really matter if it's a weekend toy or track . I personally like the idea of having 2 sensors measuring air flow as it's does help you spot intake and fmic leaks early by throwing up a code . Youngy Sorry for filling your threads with my theory ,lol . How much boost is a bit of a "how longs a bit of string" sort of question tbh, bud As the only safe way to know how much boost your engine will take is to monitor the afr ,knock and detonation while adding boost (Ie on a dyno) . I think most mappers will map a uk or wrx to 1.3 bar but they add fuel, adjust timing and smooth the boost curve by "re mapping" the parameters as they monitor As most turbo engines will eat themselves if they lean off under boost . I'd suggest a full service and dyno run if you can't afford to pay for a remap . That way you know the car is safe while you save [emoji6] If it's not broke .....upgrade it 😊 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngy Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 Yeah I'm saving as we speak just still can't decide what map to go for coz I think it's already been done but the whole car is standard apart from a cobra back box but ATM I'm upgrading everything as Iv just bought a straight through decat exhaust and fuel pump Iv just got to get my injectors,fmic and a better turbo then off we go to the mappers then I will know what it's running and what mods have been done 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage bulldogs Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Nice shopping list [emoji41] I Don't think you'll need injectors as the v5/v6 phase 2 set up normally runs yellow injectors as standard, which are 440cc and good for 350hp with supporting mods [emoji6] If it's not broke .....upgrade it 😊 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngy Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 I heard that about the injectors so that's something I don't have to change I'm just hoping I get about 330bhp out of it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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